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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Re: Martin Fletcher
( / )
Johnson doesn't care about the truth, european institutions or the good of the UK; he only cares about himself and his ambitions, all the time, always. A total narcissist.

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on
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In story: 13 - 19 June 2016

Re: People & Klatsch
( / )
If a terrorist bomb maker blew himself up, we'd probably think "good", so how do we feel about a terrorist enabler such as a gun seller in the US being killed in the act of training a potential terrorist how to conceal a gun ?

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on
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Great if that is true. This could provide an opportunity for significant change in Italy. We need a diary on recent events and prospects in Italy. I am hardly competent to compose such a diary.

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on
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Another good thing about M5* is how they have taken the wind out of Salvini's sails. (The right wing Le Pen-type). Without them to vote for it is probable La Lega would have much more support.)

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on
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😁 For those wondering what the next 4 months of political campaigning will look like, I give you ...

 


by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on
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Far as I can understand from the Italian ministry of the interior, yes there is.

Here is the results from last time (2013):

::: Ministero dell'Interno ::: Archivio Storico delle Elezioni - Comunali del 26 Maggio 2013

(I can't find the official results from yesterday.)

And the only way I can make sense of the votes/seats numbers is if the election for mayor also choses the council seats, and if the mayors list gets extra seats.

So if I understand things correctly M5* gets a majority of the seats on the council.

by fjallstrom on
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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Martin Fletcher former Times foreign correspondent
( / )
Appalled as I am at the prospect of my country voting to leave the European Union next week, I am hardly surprised.

For 25 years our press has fed the British public a diet of distorted, mendacious and relentlessly hostile stories about the EU - and the journalist who set the tone was Boris Johnson.

I know this because I was appointed Brussels correspondent of The Times in 1999, a few years after Johnson's stint there for The Telegraph, and I had to live with the consequences.

Johnson, sacked by The Times in 1988 for fabricating a quote, made his mark in Brussels not through fair and balanced reporting, but through extreme euro-scepticism. He seized every chance to mock or denigrate the EU, filing stories that were undoubtedly colourful but also grotesquely exaggerated or completely untrue.

The Telegraph loved it. So did the Tory Right. Johnson later confessed: "Everything I wrote from Brussels, I found was sort of chucking these rocks over the garden wall and I listened to this amazing crash from the greenhouse next door over in England as everything I wrote from Brussels was having this amazing, explosive effect on the Tory party, and it really gave me this I suppose rather weird sense of power."

Johnson's reports also had an amazing, explosive effect on the rest of Fleet Street. They were much more fun than the usual dry and rather complex Brussels fare. News editors on other papers, particularly but not exclusively the tabloids, started pressing their own correspondents to match them. By the time I arrived in Brussels editors only wanted stories about faceless Brussels eurocrats imposing absurd rules on Britain, or scheming Europeans ganging up on us, or British prime ministers fighting plucky rearguard actions against a hostile continent. Much of Fleet Street seemed unable to view the EU through any other prism. It was the only narrative it was interested in.

Stories that did not bash Brussels, stories that acknowledged the EU's many achievements, stories that recognised that Britain had many natural allies in Europe and often won important arguments, almost invariably ended up on the spike.

Boris Johnson is now campaigning against the cartoon caricature of the EU that he himself created. He is campaigning against a largely fictional EU that bears no relation to reality. That is why he and his fellow Brexiteers could win next week. Johnson may be witty and amusing, just as Donald Rumsfeld was in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, but he is extremely dangerous. What began as a bit of a jape could inflict terrible damage on this country.

Fight back!!!!!!

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on
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In story: François Hollande, Dead Man Walking

Re: I would respectfully take issue with the
( / )
I agree that France is not a social democracy in the sense that it has typically been run by a social democratic party:  rather that social democratic policies have been implemented as the outcome of a collaboration between left and right, often not including the ostensibly social democratic PS.

In some ways this is similar to Ireland, where the ostensibly social democratic Labour party has rarely been anything other than a marginal player in national politics, and most of the actually social democratic policies have been implemented by Fianna Fail - the Irish Gaulist Party.  It was Fianna Fail which initiated the building up of a large range of publicly owned semi-state enterprises in all sectors of the economy; the development of close union/government working arrangements through National Partnership agreements and the implementation of a good deal of social and employment law protections for workers as a result.

No one would call Fianna Fail a social democratic party, any more than the Gaulists, but we can see the degree to which their policies ended up with a distinctly social democratic tinge by the degree that their neo-liberal successors are now trying to dismantle their achievements of state led development and cooperation with leftist forces in society.

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on
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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Re: The Killing of Jo Cox
( / )
I think Warsi's defection is possibly a bellwether. She could, I suppose, be having a crisis of conscience, but it seems at least as likely that she's decided that Boris isn't going to have ministerial positions to hand out post-referendum.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on
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In story: François Hollande, Dead Man Walking

I saw that, and await the details
( / )
in which one can always find at least a devil or two.

I note the continuing usage of the divisive, even Bush-like term "loyal," as employed to indicate which one the left will putatively be qualified to run - "reformist and loyal" PS, "ecologists" but only those who have remained "loyal" to this massively unpopular government (de Rugy et al) and the Radicaux de Gauche who are, as you know, to the right, generally speaking, to the PS.

Sure a few so-called "frondeurs" will present, but they will almost certainly be marginalised in the way the primary will be constructed, and indeed Montebourg has laready indicated that if the primary is not properly open, he will run outside of it. And of course, the most popular lefty in the political environment is not going to particpate either, and in fact his current has been explictly excluded, as have the PCF (at this point, who cares, though Chassaigne is a decent potential candidate, good speaker) and the remnants of the actual ecologists (and not the butt boys who have gone over to the ridiculously named "belle alliance populaire," which might be the most unpopular popular movement ever seen.

The whole thing stinks of typical Hollande/Cambadélis court intrigue, a way to get the PS to spend November through January to talk about anything but its own miserable record, and the outcome could very well be the re-coronation of the most unpopular President in the history of the republic.

But yeah, they have announced a primary. I confess surprise, though as I said, I doubt it will be a real primary of the left. The PS machine will ensure a Sanders type be marginalized....

by John Redmond (Ladybeaterz@NolesAD.com) on
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In story: François Hollande, Dead Man Walking

I would respectfully take issue with the
( / )
characterisation of France as a social democracy. Politically, it is not, though the social environment has all the trapping of one.

The post-war settlement was essentially brokered between the Gaullists, who held (mostly) the levers of power, with an able contesting partner accross the negotiating table in the persons of the PCF and the CGT. The post-war settlement and what was acheived in terms of social progress essentially was the result of that partnership, and in many aspects should probably be considered more a patriarchal capitalism, with a strong sense of social responsability, buttressed by a strong PCF and left unions who kept the other side honest.

The PS has always been the odd man out in this configuration, and its attempts to insert itself into the settlement in order to push the interests of its electorate (the PS is and pretty much always has been a petit bourgeois party, core electorate being functionaries and especially the corps of teachers) have been mostly contested by both the historical left and the right as well. Jérôme, a perfect representative of the PS view, would often joke with me about my party tendancy to "collaborate" with the right, this is a fairly strong current of opinion within the PS to decredibilise those to their left, with increasingly weak results.

Now, what we are seeing is that the PS insertion into that settlement is seen by popular opinion as illegitimate. This government, and not just Hollande, is plumbing the depths of democratic credibility, and in so doing is setting the stage for a crushing majority for a right which has shed its Gaullist sense of social responsability. And, in the extreme divisiveness the present government is employing in attempting to maintain legitimacy, it is consciously undermining the remnants of the actual left which contributed to the social post-war settlement, and which could actually continue to act as a counterpoint to the crushing majorities that the right parties are likely to enjoy in 10 months time.

France may look like a social democracy, but it really isn't one, and François Hollande's presidency, far from protecting the post-war settlement, is fatally undermining it. This is a reason for the street protests, the strikes without end. And it is the reason that Jean-Luc Mélenchon, imperfect as he is, is far more popular on the left than anyone associated with François Hollande or Manuel Valls.  

by John Redmond (Ladybeaterz@NolesAD.com) on
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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Re: The Killing of Jo Cox
( / )
Nope. The civilised will make a point of civilised and treating their opponents respectfully. The swill-eyed nationalist xenophobic racists won't be the slightest bit concerned. Net effect is to make the civilised unwilling to tackle the loonies robustly and the loonies aren't properly challenged. See "civility" in the US.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on
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Rome is the seat of the Italian government, but the country's economic powerhouses, Milan and Bologne, have remained in Renzi's party. Still: this is a landslide for 5*.
by Bernard on
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Rome has to be the best possible place to have a reform mayor in Italy. Is there a city council and was it also up for reelection?

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on
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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Re: Stochastic Terrorism h/t Kaare Knudsen
( / )
Excellent. I obviously had hit 'post' in mid thought. But that was what I had in mind. While it might not be possible to prosecute individuals, if it can become prohibitive for any media to repeat what was said that can be effective. FB, for instance, would not let its brand be threatened. A defense would be that there is little or no evidence that the speech in question has incited any violence. And when certain speech has been shown to have been a factor in two or more incidents then that speech would become a known factor which must not be allowed to be spread by media.

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on
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Virginia Raggi (M5*) sweeps Rome mayoral election, woot.
Ditto Chiara Appendino in Turin.
Virginia with a 30% margin mandate, first lady mayor of the Capital.
Over the moon!
The people have spoken, time for revolution.
First Italy, then Europe... :)
So proud of these folks, the first party in my life that speaks to and for the people, not the elite.
Now watch, doubters, we're up and running!
Yesssss


by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on
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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Re: Stochastic Terrorism h/t Kaare Knudsen
( / )
I think it would be difficult to draft legislation, precisely because of the random element in 'stochastic'. For instance, if a Catholic cleric rails against abortion, and then a loan wolf kills an abortion clinic worker.  Could you prosecute?

Most countries have incitement to hatred legislation, and broadcasting authorities which set a higher standard for TV and radio stations. That could be the model.  After all, access to the public airways is a privilege.  Freedom of speech doesn't give any one organisation the exclusive right to a broadcast frequency.

The withdrawal of a licence to broadcast would also be a civil matter, and so the burden of proof much lower than in a criminal trial.

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on
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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Re: Stochastic Terrorism h/t Kaare Knudsen
( / )
Attorneys experienced in drafting legislation should be set to work to find a way to deal with 'stochastic terrorism' A good pressure point would be to define the term and then have a series of historical examples. The penalty could be in days for which the offending organization goes dark.

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on
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In story: François Hollande, Dead Man Walking

Re: François Hollande, Dead Man Walking
( / )
People fought back with considerable success against the demands of capitalism before the Russian Revolution! The fall of the Soviet Union is not the end of the world for those trying to protect society from the destructive effects of capitalism. I am heartily sick of that meme. Get over it and focus on what needs to be done.

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on
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Hopefully, Trump will not be able to see these poll numbers for what they are and that he continues his doomed campaign until the bitter end. Destroying the republican party in the process.

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on
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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Re: The Killing of Jo Cox
( / )
Hence, Quatremer, not that the EU isn't capable of self-destroying itself without British help.
by Bernard on
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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Re: The Killing of Jo Cox
( / )
That is my fear as well.  Even if remain win, the Brexit campaign will go on.  And everybody else in the EU will become even more exasperated with the Brits and the economic and political uncertainty will do more damage to the economic and political performance of the Uk and the EU such that the benefits of membership will become even less clear.

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on
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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Re: The Killing of Jo Cox
( / )
The polls are all over the place. They simply don't have a model for doing it properly and so are effectively sticking a wet finger in the air.

Anyone who tells you what's going to happen is guessing. But, given that it's quite likely to be a close vote, I doubt anything will really be settled. the post-referendum politics will be a lot more interesting, but hopefully more civilised, than that which preceded it.

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on
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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Re: Stochastic Terrorism h/t Kaare Knudsen
( / )
Yes, this hits the nail on the head about how these people act.

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on
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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Re: The Killing of Jo Cox
( / )
tbh I think we have chickens coming home to roost from 35 years of tabloids dripping poison into the public's ear about foreigners in general and the EU in particular.

UKIP and Britain First are only manifestations of that twisted public mood. It's odd, back in the 70s the UK was a horrid homophobic, misogynist and racist place, yet we saw ourselves as a tolerant and open society that gladly embraced Europe. As each of these strands have been increasingly challenged and we move towards actually becoming that tolerant and open society, we now see ourselves as closed and happily, even proudly, prejudiced.

As in the US, we see a large aging white population that sees its privileges fading away. they don't like being told that they shouldn't abuse foreigners, gays or women. They resent being told that the assumptions of their youth are no longer appropriate. And the EU is their scapegoat. The referendum campaign has given them license to wave their worst impulses around. And I imagine that, whatever the result this Thursday, we'll be dealing with the mess for years

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on
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In story: Open Thread 13 - 19 June

Re: Open Thread 13 - 19 June
( / )
by Bernard on
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In story: The consequences of Brexit

Re: The consequences of Brexit
( / )
Brexit Poses Multiple Risks to Europe's Stability - WSJ

Central and Eastern Europe may be particularly vulnerable to political contagion. The Brexit campaign is already having an impact on politics in the region, with right-wing nationalist parties capitalizing on fears of an increasingly German-dominated EU, stripped of its most pro-free market member and the most powerful champion of non-euro countries. At this month's Prague Economic Summit, the prime ministers of Poland and Hungary warned they would seek big changes in the way the EU operated if the U.K. left, raising the prospect of further clashes with Brussels over differing interpretations of what constitutes the rule of law and European values.

Brexit could unleash hard-to-control economic forces across Europe, too. Some downgrading of eurozone growth forecasts seems inevitable, given the likely disruption to British trade and the prospect of financial-market volatility leading to higher real interest rates. A stronger euro, which would hurt European exports, would also be likely if, as expected, sterling depreciated and the U.S. Federal Reserve decided Brexit was a reason to delay its next interest rate increase. Some eurozone central bankers fear that uncertainty over the future direction of the EU would lead to an even sharper shock as companies and households put planned investment and spending on hold.


Maybe?
by Bernard on
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In story: The consequences of Brexit

Re: The consequences of Brexit
( / )
Brexit dominates fears for the global economy - FT.com
The sentiment guiding international investors and policymakers over the last week could perhaps best be expressed by a sharp indrawn breath. As one opinion poll after another suggested that a majority would vote for Britain to leave the EU, Brexit has emerged as the biggest short-term risk bar none for the global economy.

The result has been a flight to safety in markets, a display of caution from central banks, and frenetic activity behind the scenes to prepare for the turbulence that could follow next Thursday's referendum.

Added to existing questions over US and global growth, Brexit worries have fuelled a rally in the safest sovereign debt, pushing yields on German, Swiss and Japanese debt further into negative territory and sending the yield on 10-year US Treasuries to a four-year low. A sell-off in Europe's periphery suggests investors are having renewed doubts over the EU's institutional stability. Polish bonds are suffering from calculations that poorer members would receive less from Brussels if the UK's departure cut the funds available.

This is nothing compared with the volatility that is likely in the immediate aftermath of the vote. Sterling -- already the weakest of any major currency against the dollar this year -- would be the first casualty of a decision to leave. A stampede into havens such as the Swiss franc and yen could cause problems for countries already struggling with uncomfortably strong exchange rates.

by Bernard on
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In story: The Killing of Jo Cox

Re: The Killing of Jo Cox
( / )
Britain's rival EU camps resume campaign as polls show momentum for 'In' | Reuters

Campaigning for Britain's vote on EU membership resumed on Sunday after a three-day hiatus prompted by the killing of a pro-EU lawmaker, but pledges of a more respectful tone were quickly tested by a fresh row over immigration.

Three opinion polls ahead of Thursday's vote showed the 'Remain' camp recovering some momentum although the overall picture remained one of an evenly split electorate.

The murder of Jo Cox, a 41-year-old mother of two young children, shocked Britain, raised questions about the tone of campaigning and could yet prove a defining moment in what is Britain's biggest political decision for decades.

Both sides sought to adopt a more measured style on Sunday, paying their respects to Cox but sticking closely to the immigration versus economy debate that has defined the campaign.

"I hope, because of the tragic death of Jo, we can have a less divisive political debate in our country," finance minister George Osborne, a leading conservative 'Remain' campaigner, told ITV's Peston on Sunday show.

by Bernard on
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The brutal numbers behind a very bad month for Donald Trump - The Washington Post

We looked at Trump's sliding poll numbers on Friday, but it's worth adding a bit more context.

"[T]here's no way to look at Trump's national polling that avoids the grim reality that he is at a lower ebb than any general election candidate has hit in the last three elections," the National Review's Dan McLaughlin wrote last week.

Not only are Trump's poll numbers slipping, they are at a low that no one, Republican or Democrat, has seen in the past three election cycles. Looking at the window of time between 200 and 100 days before each of those elections, you can see that Trump has consistently polled worse than George W. Bush in 2004, John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney in 2012. He caught up briefly after clinching the GOP nomination -- and then sank again.

by Bernard on
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News and Views

 13 - 19 June 2016

by Bjinse - Jun 13, 38 comments

Your take on today's news media

 04 - 12 June 2016

by Bjinse - Jun 4, 83 comments

Your take on today's news media

 Open Thread 13 - 19 June

by Bjinse - Jun 13, 19 comments

Go ahead, make my thread

 Open Thread 4 - 12 June

by Bjinse - Jun 4, 23 comments

Here's looking at you, thread

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